> Well, its clear you don't know much about it across the board.

Indeed, I tend to only know a little about most things. (Which is usually enough to get me started direction wise.)


> Plastics are forever in a whole different sort of way.

My experience of plastics is not very encouraging, as in most that I've had contact with that are old, is that they have deterioated to the stage of failure. (This can be plastics less than 10 years old, to ones decades old.) Not to mention having seen issues with pests eating plastic too (Rats, slugs/snails.)

So I'm not particularly trustworthy that plastics will last that long.

Also, glass is easier to recycle and has less issues with reuse as I understand it, compared with plastics which often have a reduced ability to be reused more than once for a perfect product. (Eg. food transparent plastic I understand can only be used once, and isn't good enough for food use a 2nd time, but ends up mixed with something else for less important products such as buckets.)


> I'm talking about plastic which is hard, transparent, doesn't outgass, and
> which is more or less as shatter proof as bullet proof glass.

That would be my prefered plastic too


> With b b guns or cake and joints?

Oh the vandals I had to build defences against used sledgehammers, pickaxes, and crashing vehicles through peoples walls, a friend of mine suffered with bullet holes..

One might also wonder how resistant plastics are to acid attacks too...


> I like to imagine these buildings still up and functional a thousand years
> from now.

Likewise. (Thats perhaps why the Pyramids don't have windows..)


Perhaps transluscent concrete ?

www.litracon.hu


> You obviously haven't spent that much time in nudist colonies.

I haven't, but I do hang out in nudist forums and listen to the people there talk about the lack of female members, at least in the UK.


> you mind races on, doesn't it.?

Always

Its nice to be in company that can deal with it.


> when there is decent internal circulation it greatly reduces this effect.

True, but that often relies on fans to work effectively, and fans consume power, a power hungry home design is one that I think isn't wise. (I've heard of many building designs that are supposed to work with passive solutions, but few if any where this works successfully. (Offically many such buildings do work according to reports, but if you speak to people who live and work in them, they report an entirely different story about how hot they get!))

Roman buildings as I understand it made good use of passive cooling solutions, and buildings in Iran have as I understand it, evolved solutions to these kind of problems and are perhaps worth looking into for solutions.


> I’ve never heard of the rotating concrete wall. That sounds awesome, but
> expensive to rotate that kind of weight.

I don't think especially expensive, here is an example of a heavy door built using a truck axle and carefully balanced:

www.amazingabilities.com/amaze10a.html

> Perfectly Aligned 9-Ton Gate Can Be Opened by Five-Year Old Child Using
> One Finger


> I do like the debates we are having though. Gets everyones knowledge
> and opinions out to make more knowledgable decisions.

Agreed.

This is very much how I work on some of my favourite forums, where various people input their knowledge and solutions evolve from the available knowledge, with everyone chipping in a little something here or there.

(The problem on TZM and an increasing number of other newish forums, is that when people come to argue and at times things get heated, there is a tendancy to ban people, rather than to warn and/or let things fizzle out naturally often. Plus also many such modern forums have restrictions on what you can and cannot talk about! (One of my pet pevs is your not allowed to mention commerical products!))

www.litracon.hu/product.php?id=9

this rocks!

Plastics have assorted properties. Your experience with junk plastics is not very relevant to modern plastics.

You might imagine it like rock. "Rock" is thousands of different minerals and
substances with different properties.

Plastic can be easy to break down or literally impossible to break down- some of it is one of the most potentially long term substances known to humans.

It can be fabric like, or solid but flexible, or solid and inflexible, or solid and scratch able, or solid and very hard and thus hard to scratch.

wiki.answers.com/Q/ What_are_the_chemical_and_physical_properties_of_plastic

www.dynalabcorp.com/technical_info_plastic_properties.asp

Plastic
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Plastic (disambiguation).

This article needs additional citations for verification.
Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (March 2007)


Household items made of various kinds of plastic.
A plastic material is any of a wide range of synthetic or semi-synthetic organic amorphous solids[citation needed] used in the manufacture of industrial products. Plastics are typically polymers of high molecular mass, and may contain other substances to improve performance and/or reduce costs. Monomers of plastic are either natural or synthetic organic compounds.
The word plastic is derived from the Greek πλαστικός (plastikos) meaning capable of being shaped or molded, from πλαστός (plastos) meaning molded.[1][2] It refers to their malleability, or plasticity during manufacture, that allows them to be cast, pressed, or extruded into a variety of shapes—such as films, fibers, plates, tubes, bottles, boxes, and much more.
The common word plastic should not be confused with the technical adjective plastic, which is applied to any material which undergoes a permanent change of shape (plastic deformation) when strained beyond a certain point. Aluminum which is stamped or forged, for instance, exhibits plasticity in this sense, but is not plastic in the common sense; in contrast, in their finished forms, some plastics will break before deforming and therefore are not plastic in the technical sense.
There are two types of plastics: thermoplastics and thermosetting polymers. Thermoplastics will soften and melt if enough heat is applied; examples are polyethylene, polystyrene, polyvinyl chloride and polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)[3]. Thermosets can melt and take shape once; after they have solidified, they stay solid.


Common plastics and uses



A chair made with a polypropylene seat
Polypropylene (PP)
Food containers, appliances, car fenders (bumpers), plastic pressure pipe systems.
Polystyrene (PS)
Packaging foam, food containers, disposable cups, plates, cutlery, CD and cassette boxes.
High impact polystyrene (HIPS)
Fridge liners, food packaging, vending cups.
Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS)
Electronic equipment cases (e.g., computer monitors, printers, keyboards), drainage pipe.
Polyethylene terephthalate (PET)
Carbonated drinks bottles, jars, plastic film, microwavable packaging.
Polyester (PES)
Fibers, textiles.
Polyamides (PA) (Nylons)
Fibers, toothbrush bristles, fishing line, under-the-hood car engine moldings.
Polyvinyl chloride (PVC)
Plumbing pipes and guttering, shower curtains, window frames, flooring.
Polyurethanes (PU)
Cushioning foams, thermal insulation foams, surface coatings, printing rollers. (Currently 6th or 7th most commonly used plastic material, for instance the most commonly used plastic found in cars).
Polycarbonate (PC)
Compact discs, eyeglasses, riot shields, security windows, traffic lights, lenses.
Polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC) (Saran)
Food packaging.
Polyethylene (PE)
Wide range of inexpensive uses including supermarket bags, plastic bottles.
Polycarbonate/Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene (PC/ABS)
A blend of PC and ABS that creates a stronger plastic. Used in car interior and exterior parts, and mobile phone bodies.
[edit]Special purpose plastics

Polymethyl methacrylate (PMMA)
Contact lenses, glazing (best known in this form by its various trade names around the world; e.g., Perspex, Oroglas, Plexiglas), aglets, fluorescent light diffusers, rear light covers for vehicles.
Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Heat-resistant, low-friction coatings, used in things like non-stick surfaces for frying pans, plumber's tape and water slides. It is more commonly known as Teflon.
Polyetheretherketone (PEEK) (Polyetherketone)
Strong, chemical- and heat-resistant thermoplastic, biocompatibility allows for use in medical implant applications, aerospace moldings. One of the most expensive commercial polymers.
Polyetherimide (PEI) (Ultem)
A high temperature, chemically stable polymer that does not crystallize.
Phenolics (PF) or (phenol formaldehydes)
High modulus, relatively heat resistant, and excellent fire resistant polymer. Used for insulating parts in electrical fixtures, paper laminated products (e.g., Formica), thermally insulation foams. It is a thermosetting plastic, with the familiar trade name Bakelite, that can be molded by heat and pressure when mixed with a filler-like wood flour or can be cast in its unfilled liquid form or cast as foam (e.g., Oasis). Problems include the probability of moldings naturally being dark colors (red, green, brown), and as thermoset it is difficult to recycle.
Urea-formaldehyde (UF)
One of the aminoplasts and used as a multi-colorable alternative to phenolics. Used as a wood adhesive (for plywood, chipboard, hardboard) and electrical switch housings.
Melamine formaldehyde (MF)
One of the aminoplasts, and used as a multi-colorable alternative to phenolics, for instance in moldings (e.g., break-resistance alternatives to ceramic cups, plates and bowls for children) and the decorated top surface layer of the paper laminates (e.g., Formica).
Polylactic acid (PLA)
A biodegradable, thermoplastic found converted into a variety of aliphatic polyesters derived from lactic acid which in turn can be made by fermentation of various agricultural products such as corn starch, once made from dairy products.
Plastarch material
Biodegradable and heat resistant, thermoplastic composed of modified corn starch.

In short, there exist space age plastics which are not biodegradable, hard as metal, fire resistant, ...

You seem to be thinking about milk carton plastic, which is like comparing

a ten or twenty electron atom to a 100 electron atom.

Yes, they are both "plastic". No, they don't have at all the same properties.

www.thomasnet.com/products/plastic-windows-94161007-1.html

forums.ilounge.com/archive/index.php/t-22517.html

www.luminique.net/novus.html

www.caswellplating.com/buffs/diamondite/diamondpl.html

www.acsa-arch.org/plastic/summary1.html

> Your experience with junk plastics is not very relevant to modern plastics
>
> You seem to be thinking about milk carton plastic

I'm not sure what you consider not milk carton and junk plastics, for example I've met failed plastics in cars, household appliances, aircraft, boats, surgical equipment, computers, exersize equipment, and scientific equpiment.

But more than my limited personal experiences, I've also spent decades listening to other folk go on about their experiences of plastics being far from painless, which makes me seriously doubt the aging and testing processes that determine a material can last 100 years by only testing it for 1 year under controlled conditions.

Plastics I do have experience of and others that can last is Bakelite, though it does suffer from being brittle.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite

As such, I tend towards materials with a long history of reliability, such as bronze, brass, items you find over a hundred years old still in use today for example.

Recyclability of materials is also a concern, and the associated pollution with that, as I can imagine more old fashioned materials being better in that regard.

Note, I am all for being educated about new products, but I'm highly skeptical and would prefer new products to be installed in a limited number for test purposes ourselves so we can be very sure they do as it is claimed on the box, before installing them widespread in a community.

For example, I heard that underflood heating with plastic piping is supposed to be very good, and I even heard from someone who installs the stuff, that after 20 years of doing the job, he rarely hears of anyone getting a leak..

But at the same time, I've heard from dozens of folk whose pipes are over 20 years old who have suffered leaks from the failure of the material..

As such, I'm not very inclined to use plastic pipe that is hard to access like that. (I would prefer it in jeffory tubes so it can be easily replaced, rather than buried in the walls/floor.)

I also think it can be valuable to look towards older and ancient building designs to see materials there that have lasted. (Wood does suprisingly well..)

good answer.

I think the only meaningful resolution is for you to look up the information.

I have posted some links and I wonder if you have looked at them. Also, you could do the same.

What I haven't found is anything easy on the net to describe the plastics i remember being discussed in school.

"space age" plastics for instance now brings up a long list of products by a specific company which took that name, not references to space age plastics.

(humans. sheesh.)

There is a point where mere argument and discussion are pointless and the only meaningful path of right action is research.

I have pledged this day of days to write RBEFs transition plan, so, I can't
really do much more.

Perhaps you could look around for us?

"Los links!!!"
Stupid commercial, but some great links have been posted here. I'm learning a lot more too. I really would like to incorporate the transparent concrete in some of the buildings. There's a lot about that and the plastics I still have to review.

> I have posted some links and I wonder if you have looked at them.

They are on my pending list of to look at links, but it might take me a while to get around to them, as my priority at the moment is to avoid being homeless again!


> There is a point where mere argument and discussion are pointless and
> the only meaningful path of right action is research.

Agreed.

kewl. I hear ya about the not being homeless bit.

do take care of your priorities. Its so nice to have you to chat with.

> Its so nice to have you to chat with.

Likewise.

You do slow me down though, with plenty to think about in what you say, so I might at times take a while to respond. (Not helped either by the forum software making it difficult to go back to previous interesting posts as they get marked as read!)

I just did a quickie study of a larger version.

Somebody please do me a favor and paint this.

Hey Nanos I extended the session lifetime, hopefully that fixes your forum bug problem. Let me know if it doesn't
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